Type 23 Duke Class

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ivorthediver
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Re: RN Frigates: Type 23 Duke Class

Unread post by ivorthediver »

Little h wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:46 pm Further to 2nd image in previous post - HMS Argyll F231, the Type 23 is alongside in Singapore at the British Defence Singapore Support Unit (BDSSU) and is undergoing routine maintenance to prepare her for the next stage of her deployment.
royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-latest-activity

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Might this be a new RAM (Random Access Memory) installation :)

or

I don't remember the old Sembawang Dockyard Mateys ever being this forgetfull!!!! - Post-It stickers everywhere :lol:

Screenshot (3520).png


Image carried in a tweet on Grey Funnel Line @GreyFunnelLine on Twitter - Nov 15; that reads:-
HMS Argyll has been in the South China Sea operating with allied navies from Singapore, Australia, Malaysia and New Zealand. Now, the Type 23 is alongside in Singapore undergoing routine maintenance to prepare her for the next stage of her deployment..

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OK I'm a teeny weeny bit sorry - but I just couldn't resist (yet again)
No need to apologise Harry , Certainly not to me , as I'm often doing it , so it would be a case of stones in Greenhouses mate :lol:

Excellent post and well presented Harry , many thanks from me , can't answer for anyone else as it sometimes feels like I'm the only one on the Forum :(
"What Ever Floats your Boat"
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Little h
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Re: Type 23 Duke Class

Unread post by Little h »

The external changes identified in the first part of this post was instigated by the image my most recent post in the thread titled 'Foredeck cables and rails(?) - but for what purpose?' - indicating possible changes to equipment usually installed on the hangar roof.


LIFEX

HMS Northumberland (F238)

Originally designed with a service life of around 18 years, the RN’s Type 23 Frigates will now have to serve for around 30 years. All 13 frigates are undergoing life extension (LIFEX) refits ...........

The Type 23 LIFEX programme is being run by the Surface Ship Support Alliance (a partnership between the MoD, Babcock and BAE Systems) and began in June 2015 when HMS Argyll was taken in hand at Devonport.

The most obvious external change is the fitting of the CAAM Sea Ceptor missile system to replace the ageing GWS-26 Sea Wolf but the refits also include major changes to equipment, the combat system, chilled water arrangements and work to extend the life of the hull and superstructure.

From this:-
F238-HMS-Northumberland-009 seaforces.org - Copy.jpg


To this:-
HMS-Northumberland Save the Royal Navy.jpg



---------------------------------------------------------------------


..... an important component of these upgrades is the Power Generation Machinery Upgrade (PGMU) to replace the ships’ four diesel generator sets.

Unfortunately, the first ships to undergo LIFEX have not received new engines and will have to wait until their next major refit.The oldest Type 23s HMS Argyll and HMS Lancaster will never receive the PGMU. Assuming they survive future defence cuts, they will have to soldier on with their Paxman diesels until they go out of service in 2023 and 2024 respectively. The project is set to be completed by 2024 when last of the other 11 ships receives its new engines.

The first of the new MTU 12V 4000 M53B diesel generator sets were delivered to Devonport Naval Base in late 2016 for fitting to HMS Richmond. The new gensets are manufactured in Germany by MTU (A subsidiary of the Land & Sea division of Rolls-Royce) and provide 1.65MW each. This will provide the ship with approximately 20% increase in available power for onboard weapons, sensors and electronics as well as for cruising propulsion
MTU-20V-4000-M53B-EngineThe MTU 20V-4000 M53B Diesel Engine (Photo Rolls Royce).jpg


Source of the excerpts incuded above is an article dated June 27, 2018 and carried in SAVE THE ROYAL NAVY - (click on link to read full article)
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Little h
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Little h
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Re: Type 23 Duke Class

Unread post by Little h »

Little h wrote: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:16 pm
LIFEX

Originally designed with a service life of around 18 years, the RN’s Type 23 Frigates will now have to serve for around 30 years. All 13 frigates are undergoing life extension (LIFEX) refits ...........

The most obvious external change is the fitting of the CAAM Sea Ceptor missile system to replace the ageing GWS-26 Sea Wolf but the refits also include major changes to equipment, the combat system, chilled water arrangements and work to extend the life of the hull and superstructure.

HMS Argyll (F231) as seen in Gibraltar June 2018 having had her LIFEX refit
F231-HMS-Argyll-024 Gibraltar June 2018 seaforces.org.jpg
F231-HMS-Argyll-025 seaforces.org.jpg
F231-HMS-Argyll-026 seaforces.org.jpg


Source; All three photographs are from seaforces.org


With the 'domed' Sea Ceptor missile system installed note the uncluttered look on the roof of the bridge housing aft; and the hangar roof.
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ivorthediver
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Re: Type 23 Duke Class

Unread post by ivorthediver »

Very interesting article Harry , and thanks for drawing our attention to it .

You have highlighted the obvious external changes which you were kind enough to point out to us , but what of the less glamorous hull overhaul works and what will this involve other than a coat of paint in the dry dock .

Are there any renewals , refurbishment's , replacements envisaged , and or additions to be undertaken that you know of please .

Would it be reasonable to assume that all the change overs of in respect of missiles comms etc require a substantial gut out of wiring equipment racks ? . and will the gen sets be taken out up through the hull or cut out through the side of the hull .

A well chosen topic to follow Harry , shame we can't nose around inside as the works proceed...... but obviously we will have to await a new "Haynes manual" ;) eh.....well done
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Little h
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Re: Type 23 Duke Class

Unread post by Little h »

ivorthediver wrote: Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:05 pm
You have highlighted the obvious external changes which you were kind enough to point out to us , but what of the less glamorous hull overhaul works and what will this involve other than a coat of paint in the dry dock .

Are there any renewals , refurbishment's , replacements envisaged , and or additions to be undertaken that you know of please.

Would it be reasonable to assume that all the change overs of in respect of missiles comms etc require a substantial gut out of wiring equipment racks ? . and will the gen sets be taken out up through the hull or cut out through the side of the hull .
Ivor I am more than a tad confused with regard to some of your queries; the answer (or partial answer) to many of them are carried in the link I provided in my post.

Re your Q. :-
Q. Are there any renewals , refurbishment's , replacements envisaged , and or additions to be undertaken that you know of please

A. ......the refits also include major changes to equipment, the combat system, chilled water arrangements and work to extend the life of the hull and superstructure
(also)
A. The PGMU project comprises 5 separate components (which the DE&S tendered for in ‘lots’); diesel generators, power conversion equipment, electrical switchboards, the machinery control and surveillance system (MCAS) and the integration work

Hitzinger UK won a £12M contract for the voltage converters
Rolls-Royce signed a £18M contract in January 2016 to deliver the updated MCAS
----------
Q. .... require a substantial gut out of wiring equipment racks ?

A. The project includes installing 600m of new pipework in each ship together with over 8km of new cable.

----------
Q. ....will the gen sets be taken out up through the hull or cut out through the side of the hull

A. The Upper Auxiliary Machinery Room (UAMR) and the Forward Auxiliary Machinery Rooms (FAMR) have to be almost entirely stripped out and new machinery foundations and uptakes and downtakes fitted.

----------
That was as provided by the link to an article titled:- New engines for the Royal Navy’s Type 23 Frigates dated June 27, 2018 carried in SAVE THE ROYAL NAVY website

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The Royal Institute of Naval Architects put the PGMU as follows:-


First Type 23 PGMU implementation set to start
Warship Technology: July/Aug 2017

The Royal Navy’s 13 Type 23 frigates are currently fitted with four Paxman Valenta 12 RP2000CZ diesel generators, the design of which dates back to the late 1960s. These have suffered from a long-term decline in reliability, and reduced generating capacity in hot environments (an engine nominally rated at 1.3MW may only deliver 1MW in warm weather conditions).

Electrical power generation
The PGMU programme, which will replace the main generators and conversion equipment, adapt the switchboards and change the MCAS system, is intended to regain and maintain full safety, availability and capability in terms of electrical power generation on the Type 23 frigate. This will allow for operations in all theatres out to end-of-life.......

-----------------------

In its entirety, the PGMU A&A package – the biggest design change for the Type 23 platform since build – will involve the installation of nearly 600m of new pipework and over 8km of new cable. Work will require the complete strip out of the Upper Auxiliary Machinery Room (with only the High Pressure Air Compressor remaining), partial strip out of the Forward Auxiliary Machinery Room (with significant changes to pipework and seatings) and new uptakes and downtakes for the diesel generators.

3D computer-aided design technology has been adopted by Babcock, as systems integrator, to support the design and production process. In the first instance, each affected compartment was laser scanned from 10 different positions to create a detailed digital image. Designers then removed redundant systems from the model, and overlaid the new systems in software


-----------------------------

The full article can be read in this link to the article source the RINA

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My guess is that the machinery is to be changed through the deck surrounding the uptakes/downtakes perhaps by removing a deck plate or three.


Taking into account the description of preparatory work associated replacing the GENSET's I thought you might find the following piece in the JNE, together with diagram of the intended look of the Type 23 Duke Class, to be of interest (note the date):-

THE TYPE 23 FRIGATE
This article is bused on the presentation given by the authors at the Royal Naval Engineer Officers' Conference on 4 May 1984

v29b1p03a.pdf


Assuming the ships in the class were built as outlined in the following diagram, my suggested route for removal and replacement would be feasible.
Screenshot (3649).jpg
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Hope that is of some help
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ivorthediver
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Re: Type 23 Duke Class

Unread post by ivorthediver »

Little h wrote: Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:37 pm
ivorthediver wrote: Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:05 pm
You have highlighted the obvious external changes which you were kind enough to point out to us , but what of the less glamorous hull overhaul works and what will this involve other than a coat of paint in the dry dock .

Are there any renewals , refurbishment's , replacements envisaged , and or additions to be undertaken that you know of please.

Would it be reasonable to assume that all the change overs of in respect of missiles comms etc require a substantial gut out of wiring equipment racks ? . and will the gen sets be taken out up through the hull or cut out through the side of the hull .
Ivor I am more than a tad confused with regard to some of your queries; the answer (or partial answer) to many of them are carried in the link I provided in my post.

Re your Q. :-
Q. Are there any renewals , refurbishment's , replacements envisaged , and or additions to be undertaken that you know of please

A. ......the refits also include major changes to equipment, the combat system, chilled water arrangements and work to extend the life of the hull and superstructure
(also)
A. The PGMU project comprises 5 separate components (which the DE&S tendered for in ‘lots’); diesel generators, power conversion equipment, electrical switchboards, the machinery control and surveillance system (MCAS) and the integration work

Hitzinger UK won a £12M contract for the voltage converters
Rolls-Royce signed a £18M contract in January 2016 to deliver the updated MCAS
----------
Q. .... require a substantial gut out of wiring equipment racks ?

A. The project includes installing 600m of new pipework in each ship together with over 8km of new cable.

----------
Q. ....will the gen sets be taken out up through the hull or cut out through the side of the hull

A. The Upper Auxiliary Machinery Room (UAMR) and the Forward Auxiliary Machinery Rooms (FAMR) have to be almost entirely stripped out and new machinery foundations and uptakes and downtakes fitted.

----------
That was as provided by the link to an article titled:- New engines for the Royal Navy’s Type 23 Frigates dated June 27, 2018 carried in SAVE THE ROYAL NAVY website

_______________________________________________________


The Royal Institute of Naval Architects put the PGMU as follows:-


First Type 23 PGMU implementation set to start
Warship Technology: July/Aug 2017

The Royal Navy’s 13 Type 23 frigates are currently fitted with four Paxman Valenta 12 RP2000CZ diesel generators, the design of which dates back to the late 1960s. These have suffered from a long-term decline in reliability, and reduced generating capacity in hot environments (an engine nominally rated at 1.3MW may only deliver 1MW in warm weather conditions).

Electrical power generation
The PGMU programme, which will replace the main generators and conversion equipment, adapt the switchboards and change the MCAS system, is intended to regain and maintain full safety, availability and capability in terms of electrical power generation on the Type 23 frigate. This will allow for operations in all theatres out to end-of-life.......

-----------------------

In its entirety, the PGMU A&A package – the biggest design change for the Type 23 platform since build – will involve the installation of nearly 600m of new pipework and over 8km of new cable. Work will require the complete strip out of the Upper Auxiliary Machinery Room (with only the High Pressure Air Compressor remaining), partial strip out of the Forward Auxiliary Machinery Room (with significant changes to pipework and seatings) and new uptakes and downtakes for the diesel generators.

3D computer-aided design technology has been adopted by Babcock, as systems integrator, to support the design and production process. In the first instance, each affected compartment was laser scanned from 10 different positions to create a detailed digital image. Designers then removed redundant systems from the model, and overlaid the new systems in software


-----------------------------

The full article can be read in this link to the article source the RINA

________________________________________________________

My guess is that the machinery is to be changed through the deck surrounding the uptakes/downtakes perhaps by removing a deck plate or three.


Taking into account the description of preparatory work associated replacing the GENSET's I thought you might find the following piece in the JNE, together with diagram of the intended look of the Type 23 Duke Class, to be of interest (note the date):-

THE TYPE 23 FRIGATE
This article is bused on the presentation given by the authors at the Royal Naval Engineer Officers' Conference on 4 May 1984


v29b1p03a.pdf



Assuming the ships in the class were built as outlined in the following diagram, my suggested route for removal and replacement would be feasible.

Screenshot (3649).jpg

______________________________________________________________

Hope that is of some help
Thank you Harry and sorry if my questions irritated you , but the answers you draw to my attention were , as you pointed out,......were contained in the brief of "27th June 2018" ......or to put it another way ....."the old Forum ", which unlike you I have no access to ;)

However thank you for reiterating the brief to which you refer .
"What Ever Floats your Boat"
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Little h
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Re: Type 23 Duke Class

Unread post by Little h »

ivorthediver wrote: Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:17 pm

Thank you Harry and sorry if my questions irritated you , but the answers you draw to my attention were , as you pointed out,......were contained in the brief of "27th June 2018" ......or to put it another way ....."the old Forum ", which unlike you I have no access to ;)

However thank you for reiterating the brief to which you refer .
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'fraid not Ivor.... the answers I drew to your attention were contained in ........ this forum, in this thread; in a link to SAVE THE ROYAL NAVY included in the last paragraph of my post dated:-


Re: Type 23 Duke Class
Post by Little h » Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:16 pm

See:-
Little h wrote: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:16 pm
LIFEX

HMS Northumberland (F238)


Source of the excerpts incuded above is an article dated June 27, 2018 and carried in SAVE THE ROYAL NAVY - (click on link to read full article)
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However, in my most recent post I included additional information drawn from the The Royal Institute of Naval Architects RINA - and a PDF on the intended Type 23 warship in a JNE edition. (both with appropriate links in support of the excerpts)

I include another attempt at linking the PDF on the intended Type 23 warship in a JNE edition - don't think it worked initially :oops:

In conclusion and purely in the interest of accuracy ....your "the old Forum ", which unlike you I have no access to .... I assure you that I have no access to the old Forum!
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Re: Type 23 Duke Class

Unread post by jbryce1437 »

Little h wrote: Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:35 pm

In conclusion and purely in the interest of accuracy ....your "the old Forum ", which unlike you I have no access to .... I assure you that I have no access to the old Forum!
Just to say that the old Forum has not reappeared, despite the pledge that it would be put back online in December in a read-only version.

Jim
HMS Raleigh 1963 , HMS Collingwood 1963 & 67 , HMS Ark Royal 1964-7, HMS Undaunted 1968-71, HMS Victory (Fleet Maintenance Group) 1971-72, HMS Exmouth 1972-74
JEM, EM, OEM, LOEM, POOEL
Then 28 years in the Fire Brigade
Retired since 2002
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Little h
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Re: Type 23 Duke Class

Unread post by Little h »

jbryce1437 wrote: Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:29 pm Just to say that the old Forum has not reappeared, despite the pledge that it would be put back online in December in a read-only version.
Jim
Yes Jim, I keep having a look for any sign of a read-only version; but as you say .... as yet nothing.

Disappointing - since many WNSF members put considerable effort into making it the forum it was!
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Re: Type 23 Duke Class

Unread post by ivorthediver »

Agreed Harry , and the less knowledgable amongst us used as a reference point when on research mode :(
"What Ever Floats your Boat"
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