HM Submarine Urge

Submarines of the fleet
timlewin
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HM Submarine Urge

Unread post by timlewin »

https://www.forces.net/news/naval-histo ... oast-malta

a sad discovery, reported by BFBS today. A sister to "Upholder" I believe, these little boats were part of the Malta legend.
tim
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jbryce1437
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Re: HM Submarine Urge

Unread post by jbryce1437 »

I still get regular emails from Jean Pierre Misson, who you may remember from the old Forum.
He believes that he discovered the wreck of HMS Urge off the Lybian coast, in the bay of Marsa el Hilal, using sonar in 2012.
He still believes that what they have discovered off Malta is one of the converted U Class boats, he believes either Upholder or Usk, due to the bulbous bow, whereas Urge had not been converted and retained her original bow. Hopefully, more evidence will come to light which may help to identify, 100%, where she lies.
A proposed survey by the Italian Navy at Tabarka, this summer, was cancelled but it is hoped that it will still go ahead at some point.

Jim


There is a news report of the finding HERE
HMS Raleigh 1963 , HMS Collingwood 1963 & 67 , HMS Ark Royal 1964-7, HMS Undaunted 1968-71, HMS Victory (Fleet Maintenance Group) 1971-72, HMS Exmouth 1972-74
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timlewin
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Re: HM Submarine Urge

Unread post by timlewin »

Thanks jim, I remember him from the old forum; changing tack slightly one of my Russian friends, a former Foxtrot Soviet era submarine captain, told me about a well preserved Vickers built mine-laying submarine sold to Estonia prewar, 1936, and then attached to the Soviet Navy.
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news ... dLocale=en

I had never heard of this so thought I would post the link, a British boat although built under contract.
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jbryce1437
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Re: HM Submarine Urge

Unread post by jbryce1437 »

Many thanks Tim for the heads up on Lembit and pleased to see she is now a museum exhibit. Just had a look on Wiki about her and she, and her sister, Kalev, were built by Vickers at Barrow.

Jim
HMS Raleigh 1963 , HMS Collingwood 1963 & 67 , HMS Ark Royal 1964-7, HMS Undaunted 1968-71, HMS Victory (Fleet Maintenance Group) 1971-72, HMS Exmouth 1972-74
JEM, EM, OEM, LOEM, POOEL
Then 28 years in the Fire Brigade
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jbryce1437
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Re: HM Submarine Urge

Unread post by jbryce1437 »

In the latest email that I got from JP, he believes that the boat discovered is not HMSM Urge. The images appear to bear out his theory as the research images do not appear to show a U Class submarine. I have included an attachement that he sent me and some images of Odin that I have.
I did a search for all boats that were lost in the Meditteranean, together with their known positions (if known) and forwarded it to JP and I have added the Word version below. As you will see, there are still lots that are undiscovered.

Jim
MALTA WRECK Correlation to O Class.jpg
HM%20SUB%20ODIN2[1] terry.jpg
Royal Navy Submarine Losses WW II Mediterranean Sea.doc
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HMS Raleigh 1963 , HMS Collingwood 1963 & 67 , HMS Ark Royal 1964-7, HMS Undaunted 1968-71, HMS Victory (Fleet Maintenance Group) 1971-72, HMS Exmouth 1972-74
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Then 28 years in the Fire Brigade
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jbryce1437
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Re: HM Submarine Urge

Unread post by jbryce1437 »

I did a check of submarines lost in the Meditteranean during the war and came up with this list:

Royal Navy Submarine Losses WW II Mediterranean Sea

1940 (9 Boats)
Odin - Loss position Unknown (possibly Gulf of Taranto),
Grampus - Loss position Unknown (possibly 3 nautical miles off Syracuse),
Orpheus - Loss position Unknown (possibly about 25 nautical miles north of Tobruk),
Phoenix - Loss position Unknown (possibly about 4 miles South-East of Augusta?),
Oswald - Loss position 37° 46'N, 16° 16'E,
Triad - Loss position 38° 16'N, 17° 37'E,
Rainbow - Loss position 41° 28'N, 18° 05'E,
Regulus - Loss position Unknown (Patrolling Southern Adriatic from Alexandria),
Triton - Loss position Unknown (possibly lower Adriatic or the Otranto Strait)

1941 (11 Boats)
Usk - Loss position Unknown (possibly in the vicinity of Cape Bon),
Undaunted - Loss position Unknown (while on patrol near Tripoli, Libya),
Union - Loss position Unknown (probably 25 nautical miles south-west of Pantelleria Island in the Strait of Sicily),
Cachalot - Loss position 32° 49'N, 20° 11'E,
P32 - Loss position 33° 02'N, 13° 10'E,
P33 - Loss position Unknown (most likely about 15 nautical miles east-north-east of Tripoli, Libya)
Tetrarch - Loss position Unknown (presumed lost by Italian mines off Cape Granditola, Sicily),
Traveller - Loss position Unknown (possibly on patrol Gulf of Taranto),
Perseus - Loss position 37° 54'N, 20° 54'E,
P48 - Loss position Unknown (most likely 37° 15'N, 10° 30'E Gulf of Tunis),
Triumph - Loss position Unknown (most likely mined in the Aegean Sea)

1942 (13 Boats)
Tempest - Loss position 39° 15'N, 17° 45'E,
P38 - Loss position 32° 48'N, 14° 58'E,
P39 - Loss position (beached at Kalkara, Malta destroyed in air attack)
Pandora - Loss position (sunk at the Valetta dockyard air attack),
P36 - Loss position (wrecked by bombing at Malta, scuttled off Malta 1958),
Upholder - Loss position Unknown,
Urge - Loss position Unknown,
Olympus - Loss position 35° 55'N, 14° 35'E 7 miles from Malta,
Thorn - Loss position 34° 25'N, 22° 36'E,
Talisman - Loss position Unknown (presumed mined off Sicily),
Utmost - Loss position Unknown (most likely that HMS Utmost was lost in a minefield as she was returning to Malta),
P222 - Loss position Unknown (possibly south-east of Isola di Capri in position 40º29'N, 14º20'E),
P311 - Loss position (wreck was found off Tavolara Island in 2015)

1943 (11 Boats)
Tigris - Loss position Unknown (most likely 6 nautical miles south-east of Capri Island, Italy),
Turbulent - Loss position Unknown (possibly 34 nautical miles from Punta Licosa),
Thunderbolt - Loss position Unknown (most likely sunk off Capo San Vito, Sicily),
Regent - Loss position 41° 29'N, 16° 16'E,
Splendid - Loss position 40° 30'N, 14° 15'E,
Sahib - Loss position 38° 30'N, 15° 15'E,
Parthian - Loss position Unknown (reported overdue at Beirut),
Saracen - Loss position 42° 45'N, 9° 30'E,
Trooper - Loss position Unknown (presumed lost on German mines East of Leros),
Usurper - Loss position Unknown (most likely mined in the Gulf of Genoa),
Simoom - Loss position (In 2016 the wreck was found by Turkish wreck-hunter Selcuk Kolay about 6 nautical miles north-west of the Turkish Aegean island of Bozcaada (Tenedos) in 67 meters of water)

1944 (1 Boat)
Sickle - Loss position Unknown (probably sunk by mines in the Antikithera Channel, Greece)

The list of wreck locations are those recorded on UBoat Net and those names in green are those which have not been positively identified. Consequently, if the wreck is O, P or R class, then Odin, Orpheus, Phoenix, Regulus and Parthian remain possibilities.


Jim

Odin
hms odin seen alongside hms medway in portsmouth-shortley before her commissioning to the china station (2451930) dated 51930.jpg

Orpheus

hms orpheus,built by william beardmore & co,dalmuir,completed 2391930..jpg

Phoenix
HMS%20PHOENIX-4TH%20SUB%20FLEET%20IN%20CHINA%20SEA-2[1].jpg

Regulus
HMS%20REGULUS-1930-1940TZ[1].jpg

Parthian
parthian.jpg


boats lost in med in ww2.pdf
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Culverin
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Re: HM Submarine Urge

Unread post by Culverin »

Unfortunately Jim much of what you have posted regards the identification of this submarine discovery is frankly nonsense instigated by your mistaken adherence to claims by JPM which he has persisted in extolling for nearly a decade.

Those responsible for identiftying this boat have been most assiduous in ensuring the information from the wreck fully justifies their published precis and as i understand the team sent down an ROV to see further detail not apparent in most of the published images. As things stand the authorities in Malta will publish more details in due course. They also have the wreck of Olympus offshore. Unfortunately they have not published a length which would be most revealing, a U class is 87' shorter than an O.

Returning to your first post in this thread it has errors of fact. Upholder retained the original U class bulbous bow with the 2 additional torpedo tubes making 6, this detracted from periscope depth operation and was duly deleted in build from all the 2nd group U boats except 4*, Urge being amongst those with the modified low bow with 4 tubes as did all subsequent U and V class boats.

* Unique, Upholder, Upright, Utmost plus original trio Undine, Unity, Ursula.
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jbryce1437
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Re: HM Submarine Urge

Unread post by jbryce1437 »

Culverin wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:10 pm Unfortunately Jim much of what you have posted regards the identification of this submarine discovery is frankly nonsense instigated by your mistaken adherence to claims by JPM which he has persisted in extolling for nearly a decade.

Those responsible for identiftying this boat have been most assiduous in ensuring the information from the wreck fully justifies their published precis and as i understand the team sent down an ROV to see further detail not apparent in most of the published images. As things stand the authorities in Malta will publish more details in due course. They also have the wreck of Olympus offshore. Unfortunately they have not published a length which would be most revealing, a U class is 87' shorter than an O.

Returning to your first post in this thread it has errors of fact. Upholder retained the original U class bulbous bow with the 2 additional torpedo tubes making 6, this detracted from periscope depth operation and was duly deleted in build from all the 2nd group U boats except 4*, Urge being amongst those with the modified low bow with 4 tubes as did all subsequent U and V class boats.

* Unique, Upholder, Upright, Utmost plus original trio Undine, Unity, Ursula.
Many thanks for your response Culverin and I hear what you say. However, the announcement of the find did not include any dimensions for the wreck and, other than on O, P and R Class boats - I have not seen such an appendage protruding out to the aft from the fin in such a manner shown in the disclosed image. I await further disclosures by the researchers which may identify the wreck specifically as Urge. As previously stated, there are a number of submarine losses in the Meditteranean that have not been positively identified.

Jim
HMS Raleigh 1963 , HMS Collingwood 1963 & 67 , HMS Ark Royal 1964-7, HMS Undaunted 1968-71, HMS Victory (Fleet Maintenance Group) 1971-72, HMS Exmouth 1972-74
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Then 28 years in the Fire Brigade
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jbryce1437
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Re: HM Submarine Urge

Unread post by jbryce1437 »

Culverin wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:10 pm Unfortunately Jim much of what you have posted regards the identification of this submarine discovery is frankly nonsense instigated by your mistaken adherence to claims by JPM which he has persisted in extolling for nearly a decade.

Those responsible for identiftying this boat have been most assiduous in ensuring the information from the wreck fully justifies their published precis and as i understand the team sent down an ROV to see further detail not apparent in most of the published images. As things stand the authorities in Malta will publish more details in due course. They also have the wreck of Olympus offshore. Unfortunately they have not published a length which would be most revealing, a U class is 87' shorter than an O.

Returning to your first post in this thread it has errors of fact. Upholder retained the original U class bulbous bow with the 2 additional torpedo tubes making 6, this detracted from periscope depth operation and was duly deleted in build from all the 2nd group U boats except 4*, Urge being amongst those with the modified low bow with 4 tubes as did all subsequent U and V class boats.

* Unique, Upholder, Upright, Utmost plus original trio Undine, Unity, Ursula.
I was led to believe that the radio most on the O, P and R classes folded horizontally towards the stern when submerged. In a similar way to the antenna on U class boats, which sloped down from the fin and secured on the casing. It appears that the mast was, in fact, telescopic and retracted down into the fin. Consequently, I have contacted Platon and asked if there is any way that wreck can be specifically identified as Urge, as opposed to one of the other U class boats that remain unlocated in the Meditteranean, such as Usk, Undaunted, Union, Upholder, Usurper and Utmost?

Jim
HMS Raleigh 1963 , HMS Collingwood 1963 & 67 , HMS Ark Royal 1964-7, HMS Undaunted 1968-71, HMS Victory (Fleet Maintenance Group) 1971-72, HMS Exmouth 1972-74
JEM, EM, OEM, LOEM, POOEL
Then 28 years in the Fire Brigade
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Pelican
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Re: HM Submarine Urge

Unread post by Pelican »

H.M.S. URGE

Please also see - https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/rememb ... f55ustoJng
Lost WW2 British submarine found sunk off the coast of Malta
VALLETTA (Reuters) - The wreck of a British submarine, which vanished at the height of World War Two, has been discovered lying at the bottom of the sea off Malta, university marine archaeologists said on Thursday.
Continues with photo at - https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-malta ... KM38b13WTo
Also - https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/s ... 3I?ocid=sf
And - https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-l ... -off-malta

Jim - I have not checked [due time restraints] whether the contents of the above links have already been posted. If so please delete.
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