HM Submarine Urge

Submarines of the fleet
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jbryce1437
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Re: HM Submarine Urge

Unread post by jbryce1437 »

I am no expert on sonar images or submarines of this period, but JP Misson has some valid points which need to be answered. However, despite him contacting the University of Malta and the MOD Historical Branch (which validated the claim), he still awaits a reply to his queries.
One of the points that he raises is, why (just forward of the gun mounting) is there a torpedo davit rigged on the deck of the wreck? Such a davit would normally be rigged in harbour to load torpedoes into the body of the boat and would be stowed away in the casing before leaving harbour.
Also, just forward of the davit, there appears to be a patch on the casing.

DAVIT Zoom.jpg


During the war, HM Submarine P36 (a U class boat) was sunk in Malta harbour and was eventually refloated in 1958 then taken out to sea and scuttled off Malta. His theory is that P36 could be the wreck that has been rediscovered. This might explain the davit being rigged on the deck. Also, the missing sections of the casing correspond to the IWM images of the salvage.

Another point is that the underwater video of the wreck appears to show different wrecks, as some features in some clips are not evident in other views.
An underwater view of the aft end of the casing shows a sequence of three holes, one of which is the Mooring hole (2), the other holes (1) and (3).

aft mooring hole.jpg

Photos of HMS Urge only show holes (1) and (2) and no hole (3).

hms urge mounting.jpg

Underwater images (below) include one showing a "collapsible antenna" which is parallel to the casing,

MALTA WRECK Particularities.jpg

yet on the video the "antenna" is shown at an angle and secured to the casing.
collapsible antenna.jpg

Below the "collapsible antenna" on the wreck above, it can be seen that a section of the casing is missing and it is JP's contention that this is HMS P36, and the casing was removed in Malta to enable armaments to be removed, possibly after her sinking in harbour or prior to her being taken out and scuttled.

Several U Class submarines were lost during the Meditteranean campaign and have still not been located. Whilst several of their locations are given as "possible locations", it is also possible that they could have eluded the enemy, only to come to grief in a minefield off Malta while trying to return to base.

Hopefully, time will tell and, one way or the other, the identity of the wreck off Malta will be confirmed, without doubt.
It is still JP Missons claim that HMS Urge is lying on the sea bed at Marsa el Hilal. Present unrest in Libya is thwarting further examination of that wreck.


Jim
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HMS Raleigh 1963 , HMS Collingwood 1963 & 67 , HMS Ark Royal 1964-7, HMS Undaunted 1968-71, HMS Victory (Fleet Maintenance Group) 1971-72, HMS Exmouth 1972-74
JEM, EM, OEM, LOEM, POOEL
Then 28 years in the Fire Brigade
Retired since 2002
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jbryce1437
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Re: HM Submarine Urge

Unread post by jbryce1437 »

A little update on this matter.
JP Misson has identified four anomalies surrounding the discovery of the wreck off Malta, supposedly that of HMS Urge. He lists them as follows:

1-A Torpedo Embarking Derrick fully deployed on the fore deck:
MALTA WRECK Derrick.jpg

2-An "open" Engine Room Hatch

MALTA WRECK Eng. Room Hatch.jpg

3-Two Bollards on the Stern section of the Pressure Hull

MALTA WRECK is NOT HMS URGE.jpg

None of the points 1 and 2 above could apply to HMS URGE, a submarine said to have been found outside Malta
Harbour and supposed to have been on its way to Alexandria.

Point 3 : A submarine with two Bollards on the Pressure Hull is of Group 3 ...HMS URGE was of Group 2!

4-The sonar image, (Attachment 1 above) shows that the Wireless Transmission Mast has fallen and that the Yagi Array
is still there with its tip resting on the after Casing.


This is not the "Stowed Away" position of this Mast (clamped-to-deck) as indicated here ..

MALTA WRECK Radio Mast.jpg

The sonar image shows that when this submarine foundered , the W/T Mast was in the erected position (like on
Attachments #7 , #8) with its Yagi Array in use.
HMS UTMOST DWG D. Hill.jpeg
HMS UNDINE.jpg

Either then or later , the Wireless Transmission Mast collapsed and the tip of the Yagi Array came in contact with
the after Casing , thereby keeping the Mast in the semi-horizontal position Attachments #9 , #10.

MALTA WRECK MAST and YAGI Ant..jpg
MALTA WRECK Fallen Mast and Yagi.jpg

This means that this submarine was "in Harbour" when it sank.


This means the wreck shown with the sonar images can't be HMS URGE

I must admit that JP has some valid points in his observations. What is not mentioned in this particular account is the fact that two U Class submarines were bombed in Malta harbour during the war, submarines P36 and P39.
P36 was bombed and sunk alongside the wall and was raised in 1954 then taken out to sea and scuttled.
P39 was damaged and beached at Kalkari, Malta and, post war, was taken out to sea and scuttled.
Consequently, and because the discovered wreck shows the derrick standing on the forward casing, it is presumed that the wreck could be one of these two contenders.
In addition, there is a total absence of casing over the Pressure Hull, indicating that this submarine got stripped of its casing before going to the bottom. This would imply that this wreck can only be HMS P36 or HMS P39, dumped offshore from Malta after some salvage work.

Only time will tell what the exact name of the wreck off Malta, but his contention is that it is not HMS Urge.

Jim
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HMS Raleigh 1963 , HMS Collingwood 1963 & 67 , HMS Ark Royal 1964-7, HMS Undaunted 1968-71, HMS Victory (Fleet Maintenance Group) 1971-72, HMS Exmouth 1972-74
JEM, EM, OEM, LOEM, POOEL
Then 28 years in the Fire Brigade
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jbryce1437
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Re: HM Submarine Urge

Unread post by jbryce1437 »

In his research, JP Misson has now unearthed the fact that another submarine, HMS Pandora, was also sunk in Malta harbour. She was subsequently salvaged and raised:
Bombed and sunk by Italian aircraft at Hamilton Wharf, Valetta dockyard, Malta, 1-Apr-42, shortly after arriving on a supply trip from Gibraltar. Wreck raised 1943. Dismantled 1957
It is his contention that the images shown by the University of Malta are of two different wrecks, one of which could well be Pandora and the other one a U Class boat, either P36 or P39.

Jim
TORPEDO Retrieval J.Wingate.jpg



With the gun mounting in front of the fin, this image is more like the profile of HMS Pandora
MALTA Wreck , pandora maybe.jpg


These images also show the mounting of the derrick on the P Class boats

HMS PANDORA with Derrick.png.jpg
HMS PERSEUS with Derrick.jpg
HMS PHOENIX w Derrick.jpg
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HMS Raleigh 1963 , HMS Collingwood 1963 & 67 , HMS Ark Royal 1964-7, HMS Undaunted 1968-71, HMS Victory (Fleet Maintenance Group) 1971-72, HMS Exmouth 1972-74
JEM, EM, OEM, LOEM, POOEL
Then 28 years in the Fire Brigade
Retired since 2002
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jbryce1437
Posts: 1879
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:28 pm
Location: Roker, Sunderland

Re: HM Submarine Urge

Unread post by jbryce1437 »

I have been in correspondence with Jean-Pierre Misson since the announcement about the discovery of the wreck off Malta.
I have to agree with him that the images and video that have been released by the University of Malta do not have the features of HMS Urge. In fact, their footage shows two, and possibly three, different wrecks on the sea floor. To assist him to bring this to others attention I compiled a slideshow to highlight the anomalies and I have uploaded it to YouTube. I will be grateful for any comments, for or against.

You can view it here: https://youtu.be/b_walq10kyk

JIm
HMS Raleigh 1963 , HMS Collingwood 1963 & 67 , HMS Ark Royal 1964-7, HMS Undaunted 1968-71, HMS Victory (Fleet Maintenance Group) 1971-72, HMS Exmouth 1972-74
JEM, EM, OEM, LOEM, POOEL
Then 28 years in the Fire Brigade
Retired since 2002
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