Type 45 Destroyers; apertures and hatches

[Little h]

Re. Attachment (below) and UK TV programme currently beign aired:-
Hmmm - we will see in the next hour to what purpose the ladder that has been lowered out of the 'diving door' is put!! UK TV - CH 5 Warship Life at Sea

, HMS Duncan D37 DupXKPsW0AALc8M NavyLookout on Twitter.jpg

Nope; nothing revealed in that (the final) episode.

Looks similar to the ladder put out for a pilot to be embarked from a launch?

Jim

That is exactly what it looks like Jim. But wouldn't the bottom rungs/treads of the ladder level with the gunwhale of the pilots' boat, otherwise there is an accident waiting to happen when the lower rungs/treads become snagged with the boat ... there is an MAIB report on just such an event involving a) HMS Westminster, b) a female RN Officer who ended up in the river Thames and c) passenger vessel Princess Rose, see brief excerpt from the SYNOPSIS:-

---------------------

Report on the investigation of a person overboard during a passenger transfer from
HMS Westminster to Princess Rose on the River Thames 24 November 2008
Report 16/2009
July 2009

SYNOPSIS
On 24 November 2008, a Royal Naval officer fell into the River Thames at Gravesend Reach when transferring from the frigate
HMS Westminster to the class V passenger vessel Princess Rose .
The vessels were making way at a speed of 4 knots. The officer was quickly recovered by the Gravesend lifeboat, which was following the two vessels; she was then taken ashore, where she was treated by paramedics.
The officer was climbing down the pilot ladder when the painter connecting Princess Rose to the warship parted. As the
passenger vessel drifted away from the transfer position, the lower rungs of the ladder became trapped in the boarding access. Consequently, the bottom of the ladder was pulled away from the warship’s side to an angle of about 40º until its lower spreader gave way under the increasing tension.
As the bottom of the ladder ran free, the officer fell off and, although she managed to momentarily hold on to a manrope, she soon lost her grip and fell into the water.

Link to the MAIB PDF here

________________________________

Thanks for your response though, it is much appreciated. Any other suggestions will be most welcome.

That confirms it!!! I was contemplating which of my prepared 'projects' I would commence posting under a new thread title ... and, prompted by this last exchange of posts - I have now made the decision - Thanks for that Jim

[ivorthediver]

From a divers point of view [ depending on the type of kit your using.... entry to and from the vessel ] the lower the ladder into the water ... the better as it marks clearly your embarkation point whilst nearing the surface , and if you are carrying investigative kit , is a good means of securing kit to assist your exit from the water and once there is can be secured and taken aboard ......and also if waring purely scuba kit for short duration dives , gives you a point to "FIZ OFF" whilst completing deco stops should they be required ........just observations from a diver's point of view you understand .......perhaps Navy divers are not allowed such basic needs in that situation ......hence a Deco pot in the space close by to the " Divers Door "

[Little h]

From a divers point of view [ depending on the type of kit your using.... entry to and from the vessel ] the lower the ladder into the water ... the better as it marks clearly your embarkation point whilst nearing the surface , and if you are carrying investigative kit , is a good means of securing kit to assist your exit from the water and once there is can be secured and taken aboard ......and also if waring purely scuba kit for short duration dives , gives you a point to "FIZ OFF" whilst completing deco stops should they be required ........just observations from a diver's point of view you understand .......perhaps Navy divers are not allowed such basic needs in that situation ......hence a Deco pot in the space close by to the " Divers Door "

Yep, I get that Ivor thanks. The ladder appearing to be in the water (or level with the surface) was why I responded to Hon Mod Jim with the comments about the height of gunwhale on Pilot's boat and the MAIB link.

However; I would have expected a ladder for ship's diver(s) use, to have been of rigid construction the top of which might have attachments to afford easy deployment and recovery - the lower rungs of which would likely have been in the water (well below the surface). I note that there appears to be revs rung on as there is a wake below the stern/transom, the consequence of which must be that the rope ladder (Pilot for the use of) will not penetrate (too) much below the water line.

Now - about these abbreviations and divers' slang ... I take it that 'Deco pot' would more correctly be known to former Navy types as .... 'Decompression Chamber'

[ivorthediver]

Affirmative young Sir , as for rigid ladders ......where space is NOT at a premium then fine.... but in diving kit can be an issue , where a flat rung is a more stable platform whilst under load ,and easier to stow , and rope less slippery than stainless steel...... in my opinion .....but other's may differ .....thats only my opinion from practical experience

[Little h]

as for rigid ladders ......where space is NOT at a premium then fine.... but in diving kit can be an issue , where a flat rung is a more stable platform whilst under load ,and easier to stow , and rope less slippery than stainless steel...... in my opinion .....but other's may differ .....thats only my opinion from practical experience

Re. HNoMS Helge Ingstad salvage/recovery operations

I see that the Norwegian Navy divers are using at least one rigid ladder.

Helge Ingstad salvage.png

[ivorthediver]

Well Harry , if we are going to compare things lets go like for like eh

The type 45 is about eight times higher than the barge you chose to compare , and if you compare like for like the 45 degree slant you point out with your pretty red arrows if applied the the type 45 under discussion the ladder base would be about eight feet out off perpendicular at the waterline would it not .

In my reply I pointed out that if the type 45 diver was in Scuba gear ...........not your second diver on the barge in full umbilical dive kit !

Unlike you to not take ALL the information into consideration when qualifying a response

YES a metal ladder at 45 degrees would aid exit to a burdened Diver , so where would you store it when detached ......along side the flight deck perhaps , given the instance you quoted .

[Little h]

Well Harry , if we are going to compare things lets go like for like eh

Well Ivor, if anything was going to be compared like for like - it wouldn't involve me and it certainly wouldn't involve me about diving .... I know absolutely nothing about diving, and have never had any interest in the activity ..... save, that is, for the diving and surfacing evolution conducted in/by submarines.

The type 45 is about eight times higher than the barge you chose to compare , and if you compare like for like the 45 degree slant you point out with your pretty red arrows if applied the the type 45 under discussion the ladder base would be about eight feet out off perpendicular at the waterline would it not .

I would guess that the bottom of the 'diver's door' in the enclosed quarterdeck on a Type 45 would be less than 3 metres above sea level.

I have no idea where the idea comes from that I made any mention of a 45 degree slant applying to the rigid ladder ... the 'pretty red/white arrows' pointed to a) the existence of a rigid ladder b) the existence of a rigid spacer bar (again no mention of 45 degrees).

So to assist I include below an attachment overlaid with:- a) 'pretty red lines No Arrows'; b) a pretty indigo/orange line; and c) a pretty yellow line

Helge Ingstad salvage (4).1..jpg

so; to clarify:-
- the two red lines indicate 90 degrees from the ladder fixing/securing plate
- the indigo/orange line indicates where 45 degrees from the ladder fixing/securing plate would run
- the yellow line indicates the projected allignment of the rigid ladder as photographed - making the angle from the vertical not the ship's side an estimated 20 degrees (not 45 degrees). If however that was projected on to a Type 45 below the 'diver's door' then I estimate that using the same/similar ladder it (the ladder) would hang near vertical because of the hull/ship's side form in that location.

In my reply I pointed out that if the type 45 diver was in Scuba gear ...........not your second diver on the barge in full umbilical dive kit !

You may well be absolutely correct in what you say Ivor - my attention/interest is in attempting to find verification as to the use and naming of the 'diver's door' - as referenced in the resent Workshop Manual(s) we have purchased.

YES a metal ladder at 45 degrees would aid exit to a burdened Diver , so where would you store it when detached ......along side the flight deck perhaps , given the instance you quoted.

What metal ladder at 45 degrees? and what given instance I have quoted? - A rigid ladder could easily be stored on brackets on either the port, stbd, or aft bulkheads in the enclosed quarterdeck below the flight deck.

Unlike you to not take ALL the information into consideration when qualifying a response

I took into consideration all the information I needed when making my response - which is evident in my post "I see that the Norwegian Navy divers are using at least one rigid ladder." posted without any qualification of any sort other than my having made an observation about some equipment in use for this salvage/recovery operation.

So there we have it; I know nothing about divers/diving activities and would never include anything other than a question(s) relating to the activity.

[ivorthediver]

Sorry Harry , perhaps a bit harsh in my response [ was hurrying to catch transport to london .....not that this is any excuse for unloading on you ]

Was merely trying to make a point .....but certainly not at your expense ....so I'll unpack , have a tot and await your next post with great interest .

So are we at this point .... to question the use of the expression of " Divers Door " , and leave it as the old Navy Quotation of:- " designed for...... but not fitted to date " phrase

[Little h]

So are we at this point .... to question the use of the expression of " Divers Door " , and leave it as the old Navy Quotation of:- " designed for...... but not fitted to date " phrase

Well let's address the above as follows:-

- are we at this point .... to question the use of the expression of " Divers Door "
-- These two features might well have that function as one of a number a uses - but, if use by Ship's Divers is not the main use, then what was/is the intended purposes of these two features (port and stbd).


- leave it as the old Navy Quotation of:- " designed for...... but not fitted to date " phrase
-- If you mean the oft used provision of 'Fitted For but Not With'; then these features clearly do not fit into that category since these hull/ships side openings exist - and come complete with functioning doors/hatches to close over them.

The door (and ladder) on the port side with coloured arrows overlaid
(Note that the colours relate to the various features as seen inside the enclosed quarterdeck in the following attachment)
- Red; the door
- Blue; the ladder
- Orange; the port stern/transom door
- Purple; louvred 'intake/exhaust' possibly associated with the trunking running down the port side enclosed quarterdeck (suspended from deckhead)

HMS Duncan D37 DupXKPsW0AALc8M NavyLookout on Twitter.jpg

A view inside the enclosed quarterdeck with coloured arrows overlaid (associated with previous attachment)

HMS Defender D36 DcWh4PqWkAAB1YW MOD Navy.jpg

The opposite 'Diver's door' - on the stbd side

HMS Diamond 180612 076 gibdan.jpg

Supplementary image showing the two stern/transom doors (both open inboard toward ship centre line)

HMS Diamond 200612 021 gibdan (2).JPG

[ivorthediver]

Makes mental note for Christmas present list ........1 Set of Day-glow multicoloured felt tip pens for our Harry to use on Forum posts as required [ classified as urgent need ] gift wrapped . there that should do it

Well Harry we will await your discovery with great interest and anticipation , as I am sure you will find out in the fulness of time