F35B Airwing

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Pelican
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F35B Airwing

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Some basic information:
This link takes you Lockheed Martin's site where a lot more technical information is available:
https://www.f35.com/
The UK's involvement both FAA & RAF:
"The Lightning II will be the backbone of Britain’s future carrier operations. As the first supersonic short takeoff and vertical landing (STOVL) fighter jet, the F-35B will provide vital 5th Generation carrier-strike capabilities to the Royal Navy’s two new carriers – the HMS Queen Elizabeth (christened July 4, 2014) and HMS Prince of Wales. These new Queen Elizabeth Class Carriers are designed specifically for integration with the F-35B aircraft, including a ski jump ramp for short takeoffs in place of the traditional catapult launch. The F-35B also has the ability to operate from land bases and remote locations, providing versatility that will revolutionize the U.K.’s expeditionary combat power." From:
https://www.f35.com/global/participation/united-kingdom
I hope that now this thread has been started other members will keep us all up to date.
See the thread on QEC [Westlant18] - things have changed from the old days - and to put it crudely Q.E. needs to pass her test in order to operate the F35B. For info some will not initially understand why we don't 'own' the A/C which will be used. Simple answer is they contain specialised equipment needed for the tests and its all part of the contract. Over to you.
HMS Pelican 1938 - 1958 GGCV L86 U86 F86 What I Have I Hold ~ A wonderful bird is the Pelican its beak can hold more than its belly can.
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ivorthediver
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Re: F35B Airwing

Unread post by ivorthediver »

Thanks for the update , , and glad to see its doing so well in practical applications .

I also started a thread following your earlier comments but Ill let the ads sort that issue out and save duplication of data ...again my thanks
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Pelican
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Re: F35B Airwing

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UK F35Bs
At present 16 UK f35Bs are flying, with 19 actually contracted on order for delivery by mid 2020. The remaining 29 from the initial funded tranche of 48 for delivery up to 2024 have yet to be contracted for, although the UK MoD has informed Lockheed and the US Government of its proposed orders for each year from 2020-2024.
HMS Pelican 1938 - 1958 GGCV L86 U86 F86 What I Have I Hold ~ A wonderful bird is the Pelican its beak can hold more than its belly can.
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Pelican
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Re: F35B Airwing

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From the QEC thread yesterday by Little h:

F35B Lightning II
Re. 809 NAS - I've just viewed the RN's Commander Carrier Strike Group advise in a short video that the F35B Lightning II's "are a joint force between the RN and RAF (pause) they are owned by the RAF (pause) but manned jointly that is both[sic] the pilots the ground crew and the maintainers"
Q. is this a unique situation; where the ownership of fixed wing aircraft embarked on an RN aircraft carrier is held by the RAF whilst operating as a Naval Air Squadron?

Harry [Little h] I have obtained the following explanation from a very reliable well informed source who I do not wish to reveal. I would not even attempt to add it except to say I really did not understand the 'ownership' situation until now. All the UKs services are becoming more integrated as time goes on. Progress?

"The UK F35 programme is not unique in the way its set up as a joint RN/RAF organisation, and certainly not the first time UK flying units have included more than one service under a single service unit title - be it sqn or wing or base level. Some examples being 360 Sqn RAF, and even the Ark Royal fast jet sqns (809 and 892) in the 1970s which had a high proportion of RAF aircrew within those NASs. However, its not until relatively recently that the MoD has had a budget management and accountability system that is both transparent and so organised in the way it now is. Its important to understand fact and process rather than through an emotive single service biased desirability or half truths into the discussion.
As it is the aircraft of course are bought for the MoD using MoD funds through a separate DE&S procurement budgetary system nothing to do directly with the single servicies daily operational budgets. - not these days anyway. However, once bought and transferred from the DE&S procurerment budget holder, they transfer "on charge" to another appointed budget holder - in the F35B's case that is the Air Command (RAF) Top level Budget Holder - the RAF CAS. This is for accountability and legal and safety management reasons ... you don't have shared ownership at that level. The assets are then allocated to a lower level operating budget holder and Duty Holder who in the case of all UK F35Bs is the Joint Lightning Force Commander based at RAF Marham - the UK F35B Lightning National Operating Centre (NOC) who will always be an RAF Air Commodore (1 star officer) and who will always have a second in command who is an RN/FAA Captain. remember the F35B is being bought not just for UK carrier operations but also expeditionary deployment to "bare base" airfields across the globe.
The fact the RAF have budget responsibility for accountability and legal reasons does not directly affect the unit identification issue - be it using an RAF or FAA number plate. the UK JLF will as agreed between the RN and RAF always be jointly staffed at unit level whatever the heritage and nominal service identification of the sqn badges. Its at this level each service has to contribute its funding to the budget by suitable annual budgetary transfers to the top level budget holder with the responsibility to run the force in question. Its a reality that the RN has funded and agreed that around 40% of the JLF will be RN staffed through the life of the Force (so far anyway). All appointments - especially at command and executive level of the operating units (sqns) will be open to either RAF or RN appointment no matter what the nominal heritage of the unit number plate. Therefore not only does the present 17 Sqn (RAF) have an RN Cdr as boss, but soon 617 Sqn will have an FAA Boss too in 2019. Its possible 809 NAS as it forms through 2022 will have an RAF wg cdr as boss. This may all seem different and strange to old timers or traditionalists, but its how its being done, and its of little value pointing to issues and attitudes that existed in the 1960s, and a very different era for UK forces indeed the country itself, of even 1982, as examples of how it was difficult or did'nt work in the specific attitudes and environments of those times. The UK Forces of the late second decade of the 21st century are different worlds compared to those days and most involved fully appreciate the need for such a joint approach, drawing on the best of all 3 services, in delivering UK capability within the budgets available."
HMS Pelican 1938 - 1958 GGCV L86 U86 F86 What I Have I Hold ~ A wonderful bird is the Pelican its beak can hold more than its belly can.
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ivorthediver
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Re: F35B Airwing

Unread post by ivorthediver »

Now I wonder where that load of twaddle emanated from .....if it aint broke dont fix it comes to mind , but it like so many other things these days done behind closed doors in the MOD and proclaimed to the forces .....their our new toys and we want to play first ......and you can have the suspect ones if your a good boy .....sound familiar ...... :x
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Little h
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Re: F35B Airwing

Unread post by Little h »

Pelican wrote: Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:39 pm From the QEC thread yesterday by Little h:

F35B Lightning II
Re. 809 NAS - I've just viewed the RN's Commander Carrier Strike Group advise in a short video that the F35B Lightning II's "are a joint force between the RN and RAF (pause) they are owned by the RAF (pause) but manned jointly that is both[sic] the pilots the ground crew and the maintainers"
Q. is this a unique situation; where the ownership of fixed wing aircraft embarked on an RN aircraft carrier is held by the RAF whilst operating as a Naval Air Squadron?

Harry [Little h] I have obtained the following explanation from a very reliable well informed source who I do not wish to reveal. I would not even attempt to add it except to say I really did not understand the 'ownership' situation until now. All the UKs services are becoming more integrated as time goes on. Progress?

"The UK F35 programme is not unique in the way its set up as a joint RN/RAF organisation, and certainly not the first time UK flying units have included more than one service under a single service unit title - be it sqn or wing or base level. Some examples being 360 Sqn RAF, and even the Ark Royal fast jet sqns (809 and 892) in the 1970s which had a high proportion of RAF aircrew within those NASs. However, its not until relatively recently that the MoD has had a budget management and accountability system that is both transparent and so organised in the way it now is. Its important to understand fact and process rather than through an emotive single service biased desirability or half truths into the discussion.
As it is the aircraft of course are bought for the MoD using MoD funds through a separate DE&S procurement budgetary system nothing to do directly with the single servicies daily operational budgets. - not these days anyway. However, once bought and transferred from the DE&S procurerment budget holder, they transfer "on charge" to another appointed budget holder - in the F35B's case that is the Air Command (RAF) Top level Budget Holder - the RAF CAS. This is for accountability and legal and safety management reasons ... you don't have shared ownership at that level. The assets are then allocated to a lower level operating budget holder and Duty Holder who in the case of all UK F35Bs is the Joint Lightning Force Commander based at RAF Marham - the UK F35B Lightning National Operating Centre (NOC) who will always be an RAF Air Commodore (1 star officer) and who will always have a second in command who is an RN/FAA Captain. remember the F35B is being bought not just for UK carrier operations but also expeditionary deployment to "bare base" airfields across the globe.
The fact the RAF have budget responsibility for accountability and legal reasons does not directly affect the unit identification issue - be it using an RAF or FAA number plate. the UK JLF will as agreed between the RN and RAF always be jointly staffed at unit level whatever the heritage and nominal service identification of the sqn badges. Its at this level each service has to contribute its funding to the budget by suitable annual budgetary transfers to the top level budget holder with the responsibility to run the force in question. Its a reality that the RN has funded and agreed that around 40% of the JLF will be RN staffed through the life of the Force (so far anyway). All appointments - especially at command and executive level of the operating units (sqns) will be open to either RAF or RN appointment no matter what the nominal heritage of the unit number plate. Therefore not only does the present 17 Sqn (RAF) have an RN Cdr as boss, but soon 617 Sqn will have an FAA Boss too in 2019. Its possible 809 NAS as it forms through 2022 will have an RAF wg cdr as boss. This may all seem different and strange to old timers or traditionalists, but its how its being done, and its of little value pointing to issues and attitudes that existed in the 1960s, and a very different era for UK forces indeed the country itself, of even 1982, as examples of how it was difficult or did'nt work in the specific attitudes and environments of those times. The UK Forces of the late second decade of the 21st century are different worlds compared to those days and most involved fully appreciate the need for such a joint approach, drawing on the best of all 3 services, in delivering UK capability within the budgets available."
Thanks for that David.

To me, the accountancy rationale seems to be high level bean-counter thinking.

However, regarding the operation of these aircraft, your source uses the term 'shared ownership' in the second paragraph of your piece.... this is at odds with the comment on camera by the RN's Commander Carrier Strike Group, in that he advised that the aircraft are 'owned' by the RAF - his words not mine!

So my question remains unanswered, see:-
Q. is this a unique situation; where the ownership of fixed wing aircraft embarked on an RN aircraft carrier is held by the RAF whilst operating as a Naval Air Squadron?
Little h
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Pelican
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Re: F35B Airwing

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ivorthediver wrote: Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:39 pm Now I wonder where that load of twaddle emanated from .....if it aint broke dont fix it comes to mind , but it like so many other things these days done behind closed doors in the MOD and proclaimed to the forces .....their our new toys and we want to play first ......and you can have the suspect ones if your a good boy .....sound familiar ...... :x
I look forward to reading a better truer explanation.
HMS Pelican 1938 - 1958 GGCV L86 U86 F86 What I Have I Hold ~ A wonderful bird is the Pelican its beak can hold more than its belly can.
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Pelican
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Re: F35B Airwing

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RN F35Bs Ownership - Harry to avoid quoting a long post yet again as I see it they are on the RAF's slop chit but another way of looking at it is that the UK taxpayers own all of them whether RAF or RN.
HMS Pelican 1938 - 1958 GGCV L86 U86 F86 What I Have I Hold ~ A wonderful bird is the Pelican its beak can hold more than its belly can.
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Pelican
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Re: F35B Airwing

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Reminder - The F35B hovers with a UK designed and built lift fan.
https://twitter.com/RollsRoyce/status/1 ... 3181642752
HMS Pelican 1938 - 1958 GGCV L86 U86 F86 What I Have I Hold ~ A wonderful bird is the Pelican its beak can hold more than its belly can.
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Pelican
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Re: F35B Airwing

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Number 2

Photo by Arnel Parker of BF-2, the second F-35B ever built and the "Brit jet" on the Integrated Test Force at NAS Patuxent River, warming herself up for FOCFT trials on HMS Queen Elizabeth last week.
A portion of the £1Bn the UK paid to become the only Tier 1 partner with the US went towards paying for this aircraft, which has had an RN or RAF crew chief and BAES Flight Test Control Engineer since before she left the factory in Fort Worth. She has been a stalwart of the test team, including the Initial Sea Trials on USS Wasp way back in 2011.
Note the orange strake on the top of the fuselage is a mounting for the spin chute, used in previously completed engine out and high angle of attack testing. The spin chute won't be needed for FOCFT.
Ramping up training ahead of debuting on Britain’s new carrier, ex-Fleet Air Arm pilot Peter ‘Wizzer’ Wilson takes off from a replica ski jump in an F-35B.
Four test pilots are getting in last-minute training ready to take their specially-modified stealth fighters aboard HMS Queen Elizabeth next month.
They’ll conduct around 500 landings and take-offs on the 900ft deck of the future flagship – the first time the Portsmouth-based warship has hosted fast jets.
She’s about to strike out across the Atlantic – another first – after final preparations in the South Coast exercise areas.
Once in the US, 200 engineers and experts from the F-35 Integrated Test Force – based at Pax River air station 50 miles outside Washington DC – will embark with a myriad of sensors and data recorders to see how the state-of-the-art aircraft perform in various weather conditions/sea states and carrying various payloads.
The ski ramp was introduced on the previous generation of carriers to give Harriers extra lift, allowing them to take off at a slower speed/heavier weight than normal – and has been retained on the new flagships for the same reason.
Two specially-modified F-35Bs and four pilots – Mr Wilson from BAE, the RN’s Cdr Nathan Gray, Sqn Ldr Andy Edgell and a US Marine Corps aviator – will conduct the trials aboard HMS Queen Elizabeth in two phases of trials this autumn, trials broken up by a high-profile visit to New York.
The F-35B is now operational with the US Marine Corps, but US ships do not feature the ski jump, which rises about 20ft above the regular deck.
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HMS Pelican 1938 - 1958 GGCV L86 U86 F86 What I Have I Hold ~ A wonderful bird is the Pelican its beak can hold more than its belly can.
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